Black Lives Matter from Conception to Natural Death: A Roundtable from #Rehumanize2022

From abortion to police brutality and the death penalty, Black Americans suffer disproportionate amounts of state-sanctioned lethal violence. This roundtable discussion from our 2022 Rehumanize Conference brings together Black activists who hold a Consistent Life Ethic to discuss the critical importance of challenging racial injustice as we advocate for human rights for all human beings.

 

Watch the video version of this session on our Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j91o_IL63Kw

 

Transcript:

Herb Geraghty: So this session is titled Black Lives Matter from Conception to Natural Death. I am so grateful to be joined by these three individuals. I'm going to just briefly introduce each of our participants and then hand the conversation over to them.

First, Jack Champagne is a graduate of the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. He currently works as an educator in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He formerly worked for the Capital Habeas Unit of the Federal Public Defender's Office, the Innocence Project, the Project, and the Southern Poverty Law Center.

He is also a staff writer for Rehumanize International. Cherilyn Holloway is the founder of Pro Black Pro-Life. She specializes in initiating tough conversations surrounding racial equity, including in the womb. She travels the country, educating her community about the negative messaging they receive regarding motherhood and the sanctity of life.

Finally, Gloria Purvis is an author, commentator, and the host and executive producer of the Gloria Pur podcast. Through her media presence, she has been a strong Catholic voice for life issues, religious liberty, and racial justice. She has appeared in numerous media outlets, including The New York Times, the Washington Post, PBS News Hour, npr, Newsweek Live and she hosted Morning Glory, an international radio show.

She recently debuted a video series entitled Racism, Human Dignity, and the Catholic Church through the Word on Fire. I. Again, I am so, so grateful for each of our participants. With that said, I am going to get out of here and give them the opportunity to discuss their work and tell us what Black Lives matter from conception to natural death means to you.

Thank you all. Thank you. 

Jack Champagne: Thank you, Herb. 

Gloria Purvis: Jack, why don't you start us off. 

Jack Champagne: Oh man, . I was, I'm, I'm a, 

Cherilyn Holloway: I was gonna vote for Jack. 

Yes. . 

Jack Champagne: Ah, alright then. So yeah, I was, I was, I, I've spent most of my life kind of with the sort of mainstream understanding of, uh, of life issues, of kind of being, you know, kind of,

not super, uh, decided on the issue. It was actually working at the capital habeas unit that I actually, developed a, I mean, you try working with condemned prisoners and not develop a healthy respect for human life. It's, you know, dealing with, you know, prisoners who do not have living victims and who are themselves usually scheduled to die at the hands of the state.

Having to advocate for these people and, you know, if you don't have an opinion on the death penalty going in, you will definitely have one coming out. And, I mean, it, it's a, it's a powerful experience, you know, just looking at the conditions they live in, the legal issues, that, uh, that surround capital punishment, and, uh, you know, just working under, Marshall Diane, who I think is still working there, who was a, who was a very, you know, loud voice against the death penalty.

Just kind of, just kind of, you know, uh, formed my thinking on that. And of course it's, you know, Uh, very short distance from there to, you know, you know, concern about the lives of the disabled and the unborn. And you know, that, that, that of course interacts with my, my perception of race, both as, uh, both as a black man and as somebody who was clientele was almost always black men as well.

So, you know, that's, that's. Uh, you know, that's, that's, I I have a very tangible, you know, grasp on what that looks like for me. I don't know about the, I don't know about you, uh, you all, but that's kind of where I come from with it. 

Gloria Purvis: Uh, you know, I, I think, I'm a child of south. I mean, I grew up in Charleston, South Carolina.

Which is where the Civil War started. Long history of bad race relations, . Still, we have people having a love affair with the lost cause mythology that the South had race relations, uh, correct by subjugating black people and that we were happier with the way that it was and that they had it right in terms of human relations between men and women.

Uh, right in terms of the race question, but it wasn't. And, this — growing up in that environment, but at the same time, growing up in a very strong black community, in that environment, in a strong black community of people who, despite all the obstacles were achievers, were people who created things within the black community.

And so while I grew up down there, I also had an environment where black excellence was normal, was normative. And, encountering people there that thought that, you know, I shouldn't think so highly and be so sure of myself. And that was their problem, not mine, but at the same time also seeing the

uneven application of law enforcement, the uneven application of good healthcare. You know what I mean? Things like that, that you just as a black person moving through the world is paying attention. You see these things. And then, as a person of faith, also as a person that, believed in the science, you know, and I studied biology, uh, I understood that the human person.

It, you know, is a human person, is a human life, a member of the human family from that moment of conception. And it just made sense to me, that we'd wanna protect and defend that life from the moment of conception all the way through natural death. And it was inconsistent to me to, in, on the one hand, say, we wanna defend lives in this instance,

and yet in another instance, get rid of that life it in as a means of empowering others. So it just seemed illogical to me, some positions that I've seen in different justice movements. So it made me question, well, what is justice really? And as a, a person of faith and studying with the Catholic church understands justice, being justice means every human

person — life being, uh, gets what they, you know, they merit something their life merits, protection, nurturing, flourishing. And that's what each of us is entitled to. Whether we're, whether we're the condemned on death row, whether we're in the womb, whether we're on our deathbed as a sick person, our lives of worthy of protection.

And, and, and now even I think people are struggling with the notion that the death penalty should be no more. You know, we, we have this idea that really is really vengeance if you ask me. It's not justice. This idea that, you know, people need to get what's coming to 'em in a negative way without ever looking,

also, at the way racism influences how the death penalty, who gets the death penalty. How, someone's wealth or lack thereof, influences who gets the death penalty, influences who even gets arrested and prosecuted. So, uh, there's so much uneven in our legal system. I've learned to call it the legal system instead of the justice system.

There's so much uneven in our legal system that, it, it, it really, in terms of fairness, makes no sense to have the death penalty. Not to mention that each and every person, no matter what they've done, has made the image and likeness of God and is worthy of dignity and respect. And we as believers, I'm speaking as myself, are called to respond differently to persons who have harmed the community.

We want restorative justice, not, not vengeance. And I think that's a difficult thing for people, but we can get into that and, and all, uh, later, but just as a high level, that has influenced, you know, my views and understanding of the human person and, and the dignity and why their lives need to be respected and protected.

Cherilyn Holloway: Yeah, that's, both of those are like, spot on. So I, got into this. I was a community outreach director for a pregnancy center. I had made two previous abortion choices and I came outta those really feeling duped. Like I wasn't given all my options. And had I been given all my options, I would've made different choices.

And I didn't want another woman to have to go through that. I had no idea that there was like a pro-life, pro choice. I had no clue. I was completely ignorant. And even when I joined the first pregnancy center, it wasn't something that they talked about. Nobody ever talked about Roe versus Wade. Nobody ever talked about the March for Life.

It was just kind of like hand to the plow. We're just helping women. And it wasn't until I moved back to Ohio. I'm originally from Oberlin, Ohio, where the college is, and I grew up just with this, bubble. And in the bubble we were all like working towards justice. And so , you know, racial justice, food equity, everything you could think of, you know, Oberlin College was a first college to openly accept gay and lesbian couples.

It was before like, I don't know, there's a session earlier where someone was saying that like being trans really was, wasn't a big deal in the 2000s and now it's a big deal. Like that is, that was my world and. So I grew up in a very different community that was surrounded by all white rural communities that were extremely racist.

And so it wasn't that we were going out somewhere far to do work. We were, had work to do right where we were in our county. And so I moved back to Oberlin. and, uh, became the executive director of my local pregnancy center. And that's where I learned about this pro-life, pro-choice, uh, overturning Roe versus Wade.

But the biggest thing I learned about was the disparities of abortion in the black community. And I couldn't wrap — I'm very li I'm not very sensational. Like I'm not, nobody would describe me as sensitive. Nobody would describe me as overly emotional. I'm very logical, data driven, straight to the point.

And to me it just, I couldn't figure out why the, why everyone didn't know this. Like why isn't this obvious to everyone else? Like, I know I'm not like crazy, but this is obvious. And so when I began to go to conferences and look around and see, you know, five to 10 people that look like me and wonder, and everyone's stopping me saying, Why isn't the black community enraged about the abortion numbers?

And I'm like, Have you, I don't know. Like I'm trying to figure it out myself and like, Well, what can we do? And so then I started pushing back and asking, Well, what do you do for their other circumstances? Like what do you do to help them with the children that they already have? Like, what are you doing to help them find, you know, equitable jobs?

Like how are you helping them in other ways? Like, what else are you doing aside from, you know, telling them that we're having too many abortions? and I've — I kept being met with the same response, which was, Oh, well we wanna keep to the main thing. The main thing. It doesn't really matter if the baby doesn't make it out the womb, but it does matter because unless you are pregnant, you're not really thinking about abortion.

So it absolutely does matter. If we're not actually doing something in the community to help the lives that are earth side, then it does matter. And so there just became, Pretty obvious tension between me and, uh, some of my, uh, pro-life comrades , because I wasn't going to be the person who, who just stood and talked about, you know, racism and the abortion issue without tying everything else together.

And that's how I began to reach my community, inadvertently just without knowing, just randomly talking to people at the barbershop in the grocery store and , uh, wherever I could, because I talked to people everywhere. Um right. And that led me to start Pro-Black Pro-life just to be able to have a place. Where people who thought like me, because I just like, I can't be the only one gonna keep me to have this place.

And then I built it. People came . That was kind of my, uh, way into really thinking about how Black lives matter from womb to tomb and how to be able to communicate that to the greater black community. 

Gloria Purvis: You, you know, Cherilyn. That question that you know, well, why aren't black people more outraged about abortion?

I would hear a, a flavor of that just about everywhere I went. But it was asked in a way, like in some cases like, is your community stupid? You know? Right. It's so condescending. And so when I felt like it, 'cause a lot of times I was like, remain in your ignorance because I don't have the wherewithal right now emotionally to deal with this.

But in, in cases where I felt that it was worth having the conversation, I help people understand that there's a difference between abortion and the kinds of racialized, other racialized violence that we experience. I said, So for example, abortion. An abortion is something somebody has to go out and get.

I said, me walking through the street and getting cold jacked by the police, I have to do nothing except be me and move through the space. So in terms of, uh, actual threats, nobody's jumping out and putting an abortion on you per se, you know what I mean? Right. So in terms of actual threats, what I'm thinking about as I'm leaving out of the safety of my home are those things that I cannot control.

So I cannot control being followed in the department store and having security called on me. I cannot control when the doctor is ignoring me. When I say I'm, I'm hurting, you know, I need help with this pain. I cannot control when, I come in for a job interview and although I'm qualified and my name hints my ethnicity, that I'm not given the job.

But I can control whether or not, at least in some sense, of going to choose abortion. So the threats are perceived differently. You know, the existential threats are perceived differently. Even though our community is heavily targeted, uh, for abortion and heavily marketed to, for abortion and all that kind of stuff, it's just perceived as a different kind of threat.

So while it's not that we're not outraged, it's just that we got a lot of other things we got like going on. We got a lot already going on. So it's not that we don't care, it's not that it's, it's frankly that the people asking question are so far removed and so uninvested in the black experience that they can't fathom that we move through the world differently than they do.

Jack Champagne: Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I think, I think, I think Cherilyn gets at something. When she talks about how isolating it is to sort of be in the black community, but also be pro-life because you're kind of, you know, the, there's sort of some kind of, there's kind of a regulatory capture in black communities in which the most politically active of us also feel the need to go in, all in on being pro-abortion, because that's where the political allies are.

And then on the flip side, you have, you know, pro-life movement, which is not, uh, not always responsive to black voices. And black voices are not always present, you know, and I had occasion to think about this, you know, when, uh, Kamala Harris, you know, had brought, brought those leaders together to talk about, you know, reproductive justice and how effectively they were able to, to, do the messaging on that as sort of a civil rights.

Uh, sort of or group, you know, you had buy in from Al Sharpton, from Mark Morial of the Urban League, from the NAACP, from all of these groups, these big names, and it was, it was, and you know, it's stunning how easy it was and how effectively they had kind of, you know, seized on this black organizing tradition and had kind of made it into —

you know, this is the natural continuity of, you know, this black organizing tradition and kind of how uncritically, you know, is kind of accepted in these communities. So, you know, that isolation, it does have real political results and, you know, we're seeing it become, you know, increasingly stark and, you know, sort of a post Dobbs reality where, you know, these sharp political lines are being drawn.

Cherilyn Holloway: Yeah. And I think that, I mean, I, I feel like. We'd be remiss if we didn't address the fact that the idea of a black woman, woman, having the right to have an abortion really becomes a rights issue. It's a control issue of a right that she did not used to have. Mm-hmm. . And so we can't ignore that. Right? We can't ignore that.

There was a time when black women were not in control of their bodies and were not in control of what, you know, when they had babies and how many they had, and their children were sold, you know, into, in being enslaved. We cannot ignore that. And so this, this idea, you know, overturning Roe and the Dobbs decision takes us back to to, you know, black women not being able to control their bodies is, is a very real fear for some black women.

But, but on the flip side of that, on the flip side of that, there's a huge difference between women's rights and reproductive justice, right? And so what ends up happening is that the Women's Rights Movement does what the Women's Rights Movement does, right? It isolates black women. Because what women's rights are fighting for are very different than what black women are fighting for with reproductive justice, right?

Black women are fighting for this idea, not just to have an abortion. The abortions like the caveat, like it's stuck on the end and doesn't actually make sense because all the other rights have to do with, maternal mortality, infant mortality, being able to take care of their children. Having healthy relationships, having healthy schools, healthy childcare, like all of those things are in the reproductive justice, like being able to have a good birth experience — and then abortion is like tacked on that, and it almost doesn't make any sense. Where, in the women's rights movement, it's solely about abortion.

That's it. and what black women are saying, like our issues are more complex. And I feel like even on the pro-life side, that's what we're saying, right? We're saying, yes, we get it. We're pro-life, but our issues are more complex. If we cannot figure out why women are jumping in and go upstream and stop that, we're just gonna be steady pulling 'em off the river. And there is no, there is no relief

when we're consistently pulling them out the river. We're not actually solving the problem. And for 50 years we have not actively solved this problem . And so now everyone's like, Oh, well, you know, what does post, you know, Dobbs look like? Well, it looks like what it should have looked like in 1973. Like, we should have been working to solve some of these systemic issues that Gloria just named in order to help women.

If 70% of women, black women, are having abortions for financial reasons, and we're talking that they only need $20,000 more to, to make a choice, to say, to keep their baby. And I say only because I know that there are people who are donating $20,000 to pregnancy centers. Which they need to do. Don't stop doing that.

But it's — there is no lack of funds in the pro-life movement. 

Gloria Purvis: Okay. So couple things. I do think it's a temptation — and I think it's not, I think it's on purpose that, around abortion, it's always marketed to black women as if you're losing something. Oh, these rich white women can do it, and if you can't do it, therefore it's not equal.

And I think that's the biggest bunch of hokey. Because frankly, the thing that we want that, that that white women take for granted, isn't abortion. We want safe and affordable housing, clean water, jobs for our spouses, a good education for our children. And I think it is an absolute insult that the thing that they're like, well, you can have this thing though.

You can have abortion, and you should really be rallying for abortion because that makes you equal to these wealthy white women. I'm like, no it doesn't. All it does is remove our children from these substandard conditions, while we still remain in those substandard conditions. Let's remove the substandard conditions from our community.

That is what we need to be focusing on. If you want equality for black women, for black men, for black families, for black children. And so it has just been. Just, I, I, it has just been shocking to me how much, how much energy and effort is put into abortion. I mean, I just saw a member of the Divine Nine say something positive about abortion.

Kamala Harrison, I are both members of Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority. I'm hoping the sorority doesn't say anything along those lines, but they probably will, if they haven't already. So it is absolutely, like you say, Jack, going to all these large black organizations and getting their buy-in and getting them to send a message out to their membership.

And I think we need to start speaking, you know, among our friends, among our families. So whoever wants to listen in our churches, our parishes, our sororities, fraternities, our fraternal groups, whatever, to challenge, you know, this notion that abortion is a good thing for the black community. I think we also need to understand the idea of rights. Rights

cannot go contrary to the nature of a thing. And so for people to, at at least in my opinion, call abortion a right. I'm like, but that goes exactly against the nature of what it is to be female, to be able to conceive and bring life forward. So to me, to say that it's a right to terminate that pregnancy — as if our biology is some inherent injustice against being female. To me,

it's very anti-woman. And it never allows us to have these broader conversations about what the economy, what our culture, what society needs to look like, to be more inclusive of women as we are. I mean, if, if the answer for every difficulty that we experience is, you know, get that abortion, that's gonna liberate you, that's gonna free you, you can go and achieve, you can make more money.

Then we never really talk about the structures or the systems that hold us back from achieving and making money. And then one last thing I wanna say: when they do studies on who wants an abortion, it's typically those women or families making a combined income of more than a hundred thousand dollars a year.

Those making less — like, let's say 40,000 or less — by and large want to keep their children. So abortion is even being marketed to the very communities, poor black women, as liberating with those poor black women do not want abortion. And then one lesson, I will say this: bell hooks, who died recently, talked about in the feminist movement, how black women's aims were very different from white women.

They weren't pushing for abortion. But because white women carried the day, abortion became central to being feminist, to being liberated, but that is not at all what black women wanted. So yeah, I think we need to recapture what it means to, as black women, what, what, uh, equality and liberty really means. And I don't think, having the ability to end the lives of our children in the womb is the answer.

Jack Champagne: We popped over to the Q and A real quick. There are two kind of related questions. I wanted to see what y'all thought about — uh, first one's anonymous. Uh, it says, As advocates for racial justice and people who have interacted with the pro-life movement, which is often tied to conservative circles, what are some strategies you might suggest for how we can push back against the racism that has grown so loud in the G O P and Trump movements.

And then second one, uh, this is, uh, Miles Bedlan, I think. How can we make the pro-life movement appeal more to black Americans? I've noticed that the pro-life movement is overwhelmingly white. 

Cherilyn Holloway: I'll do, I'll do the second question. Yeah. 

Gloria Purvis: You know, sometimes I'm, sometimes I'm like, I really think some that's gonna be something that, white pro-lifers need to take up.

I really am not interested in, to tell you the truth, I'm really not interested with the limited energy I have and having to fight the obvious racism. Right? And quite frankly, the people who are prone to those kinds of behaviors or coded, coded language, probably can't hear me when I talk to them about why something is racist or inappropriate.

But they probably could hear, uh, their fellow white pro-lifers explaining or calling out why something is racist or dehumanizing to black people. And so I'm gonna really invite all my white pro-lifers to, to take up that, to take on that calling something out directly and helping people recognize that something's racist.

Because I'm finding that unless the slur, a racial slur is used, people cannot recognize that something is racist. And I'm like, you know, there's a lot of coded language. There's a lot of — people know not to just come out with racial slurs, but they still can be very racist in their language and the way in which they address certain things.

So, white pro-lifers, call 'em out, and also make room for black pro-lifers to come and just speak and be a part of the movement. Invite us to come and talk at your conventions, your meetings and things like that. If you want us to be more included and at the same time, call out, you know, these racist talking points that you see sometimes in the movement.

Cherilyn Holloway: Oh, well I'm gonna tell you right now, like, don't invite me unless you're ready to burn it down. Like, if you're not ready, don't invite me, because I'm, I'm just, I'm gonna say what I wanna say and it may upset some people, and that's just the way it is. So, if you're not ready to restart, uh, or if you haven't recently restarted, you know, and I 100% agree with, like, I don't have the bandwidth.

Like I, I don't, like, I spent a couple years very early on answering these questions and my final answer was — a very sweet southern white woman stopped me at a conference and said, how do we reach the black community? And I said, Let us do it. Like each state, like state, like if you're not there, like, that doesn't mean like there shouldn't be services or things like that, but we don't trust you.

Yeah, like we do not trust, you know, the G O P, the Trumpist movements, we don't trust, you know — we don't trust it. And so, you know, I picked the name Pro Black, Pro-Life for a reason. Because I was done, but I felt like I wanted to still own the pro-life where like — you're not, I'm pro-life. You're not going to convince me to call myself something else.

Like it is what it is, but I'm womb to tomb. I'm gonna tell you what it means to me and like it'll love it. Like it doesn't matter. It's not gonna change the way I feel. And so the pro-life movement itself is not going, we're not going to be able to make a mass appeal. What we, what we're gonna need to do is be more present,

and seen, so that people who are sitting in the closet with their pro-life views, that they feel like they're, they're consistent, but everything around them is inconsistent, right? So like here, we all have a consistent life ethic. This — we know this exists, but people don't know this exists. And so when I talk to people, you know about being pro-life or about the womb, or about.

They all say the same thing. I just went to a doctor and she goes, and she goes, Well, what do you do? And I told her what I did and she goes — It's just her and I there. And she's like, I'm pro-life too. I'm like, Why are we whispering? Because, right. It's just me and you. Right. But the idea was, she was like, But I don't wanna tell somebody else what not to do.

And I told her, it's not about telling somebody else what to do, but people need to know. So when people know better, they do better. And most of the people in the black community, not the people that we see, you know, at these large national conventions, not, these are the people that I'm talking to. Most people in my church and in my community don't know the truth about abortion.

They don't. They think that it's legal, so it must be okay. And so we just need to continue to speak the truth. You know, if you're gonna platform someone, you know, a black, you know, a black speaker, don't ask 'em what they're gonna say. Like, listen to a couple of their stuff. Ask 'em to come and let them have at it.

Like, don't always tell people like, If you're gonna raise some money, don't ask me. Because I can't promise you people are gonna give.

Gloria Purvis: Cherilyn let me ask you something because I think the name Pro-Black is in the name Pro-Black Pro-Life — putting Pro-Black right there. I think it sends a message because there are. Prominent black voices in the conservative pro-life movement who are def — definitely anti-black. I mean, I'm thinking of one woman in particular who I will not name because I feel like I'd conjur the devil if I ever mentioned the name.

But, so anti-black in the things that she says and I'm like, how do people, in the pro-life movement, listen to this person and not hear the odious anti-gospel message in what she says. And I've come to recognize because they have not unlearned the racist conditioning that they've been exposed to just by mere fact of being born and going through the educational system or even

entertainment, uh, system in the United States that has definite, uh, programming around blackness that seems to reinforce a criminality. A promiscuousness, an ignorance, a laziness, an untrustworthiness, just everything negative that you could think of, is out there. And so there hasn't been this unlearning and with people like this particular person and, and there are many of them, smaller level, you know, I, I can think of a number of people trying to, go for her crown, but they cater to that, those kind of,

talking points about this inherent brokenness in black culture and which, you know, tries to imply there is something inherently criminal and broken in us, which is just nonsense. And so I will say, yeah, have the black person come speak, but please do check to make sure they're not reiterating a bunch of anti-black talking points, because we don't need more of that.

No, you know, it, it doesn't, it, it does nothing to help the movement and it certainly says to other black people, other healthy, normal black people out there that they are not welcome. 

Cherilyn Holloway: Yeah. And, and, and people, like the person you speak of, they're not talking to the black community. That is something that I often have to talk about in trainings and what I'm speaking is that they're, they're, they, they're saying that that's who they're talking to, but we're not listening to them.

Right. So they're not. They're talking to you, like, they're talking to a white, conservative audience saying what the white, conservative audience wishes they could say to black people. But at the end of the day, ain't nobody saying that to black people. Cause black people ain't listening. Right. So Jack, do you have anything to say?

I was gonna go to more questions cause I think we have 10 minutes. 

Jack Champagne: So, so I'm very much in the Cherilyn Holloway school of Prepare To Get Your Feelings Hurt. , I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer it like this because it also tangentially answers Ben Conroy's question, which is that, you know, I was born Jackson, Mississippi, Heart of the Beast.

Did a lot of work in Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, you know. Things that black people care about, voting rights, uh, rights for convicted felons, rights for housing. I see never one pro-life person involved with any of that. There are more black people in Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana than there are anywhere else in the country.

And I didn't see one black person involved with any, you know, any pro-life, anything. And I didn't see any outreach from pro-life people to any of these groups. All of my volunteers were, you know, working for democrat, governors, governor candidates, pro — pro-choice people, you know, those are the people who were asking me to speak at events.

Those are the people who are asking me, how can I help? Those who are people — you know, fundamentally it's a problem that conservative, uh, a lot of pro-life people, they fundamentally don't respect black voices and they don't care about black issues. And that is, that is probably the most fundamental problem.

There's no, you know, magic tool. There's no, there's no way to speak about these issues. Sometimes it's just caring. Sometimes it's just caring about, uh, helping people that can't help you. You know, we shouldn't, we shouldn't really be having a conversation about how we convince, can convince pro-life people to care more about racial justice —

that should just be an inherent part of their calculus. But it's not because they're not pro-life. They're anti-abortion. And some of them are self-conscious about that. Some of them were like, I don't wanna be pro-life, I just want to be anti-abortion. And you know, because it requires them to do it, requires them to do things that don't directly benefit themselves and instead benefit a community that they don't care about and can't get anything from.

And, you know, you can't tell me. You cannot tell me you are working in some of the only counties in the country that have a majority black population and you can't find any black people that agree with you? Give me a break. Like that is not, That is, That is a, Wow. That is, That is, That requires such an instrumental view of black people.

That, you know, it, it kind of makes you tell on yourself like, Oh yeah, they might agree with me on abortion, but they might be too militant. They might be, they might care too much about racism. You know, they might not talk about it in a way that, you might, you. You, you might, you might offend my audience and things like that, right?

So, you know, you need to, you need to, you need to step, basically what you need is you need to step outside of this, this paradigm in which, "I will only care about black people if they can help me. I go, I can only care about black people if they're not too extreme." You know that, this is why, you know, we get anti-black, black people

that are so highly valued in the movement because that's all the only voices that the movement values. And will tolerate. 

Gloria Purvis: Exactly. And will tolerate. So. Well, you know, Jack, you made me actually think of a time that I went to Community Action Arkansas and there was a bunch of black people that I was down there with, and we were talking about the upcoming election.

And this was before Trump. And the issue of abortion came up, and every single one of those persons that I spoke to was pro-life, but they also told me their experience of going down to — I don't know how they did the primaries or something, you had to vote by party or whatnot — so they had to go down where all the Republicans were, and the open hostility that they experienced from these white Republicans when they went over there to vote pro-life made them say, "They don't want us here."

And so, they have no interest in our thriving as a community. And so their actual experience of the so-called pro-life movement in their state when it came time to exercise their right to vote, was that it was very much anti-black. And they didn't see, so, they don't vote Republican because of their particular experience of that party in their local experience, and what their party locally has done or not done, you know, for or against the black community.

And so while they are pro-life, they cannot vote locally with the Republicans who are so called the party of life because of their overt racism. Mm-hmm. , so you know. I, I, So at the same time, and I get it, I was like, Hey, I'm not telling you to go vote with people who'd, you know, just as soon slit your throat or hang you up from a tree.

You know, in reality, while they may say they're pro-life, they're not really talking about your lives in the womb. When they're saying that they're pro-life, That's not their vision of being pro-life. So maybe that's the reality for quite a number of folks. So. 

Jack Champagne: Yeah, I mean, we, we, what we, what we want is, It's relatively simple.

It's if you can be a pro-life candidate and have a stance against racism that is not limited or qualified, you're golden. You — there's no one — there's no one else like you in the country. Yeah. And it's so easy and people stumble on it so much, and I simply don't understand it. 

Gloria Purvis: Can we, I see one question.

Cheryl, did you wanna say something else? 

Cherilyn Holloway: Yeah, I was gonna read a question. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. So Lisa Stiller said, How do you answer people that say reversal of Roe negatively impacts BIPOC communities the most? So my first response is always, Why? Why does it negatively impact — and they're gonna always say the thing.

Same thing, right? Poverty. So we don't have an abortion issue. We have a poverty issue. Mm-hmm. . And so if you want to not negatively impact the black community, help them get outta poverty. Mm-hmm. 

Gloria Purvis: and Lisa, please remind them. Killing the poor does not solve poverty. Never. Okay. And that's what what they're saying, you know, is the solution to poverty for these BIPOC communities is to eliminate their children. Again, eliminating children from a substandard condition instead of eliminating the sub standard conditions from the community.

Cherilyn Holloway: , 

yeah, this is another good one. That I may have an answer to. I don't know. What are some things you've seen well-intentioned activists do in an attempt to be pro-black that have been unhelpful?

Oh, so a big one for me. This is a huge pet peeve for me and I hate to say that like I was inadvertently a part of it. Like I didn't know I was beginning my years, you guys. So this is like a pass. This is my pass. I don't like it when people take sayings and, change them to fit what they want. I forget what the word is.

There's like a word for this, 

Gloria Purvis: Appropriation? Is that it? 

Cherilyn Holloway: Like Black Lives Matter, right? Right. So when black activists take that and they put like pre-born in front of it or all, or like when someone does that, and I feel like that is well intentioned. I get it. I get the intention, but the saying Black Lives Matter is true.

There's nothing wrong with that saying, right? And I feel like if you're saying Black Lives Matter as someone who's pro-life, you should mean from womb to tomb. So it, it, it, uh, irritates me or agitates me or aggravates me. Like it won't send me like off the rock or when people do that, like when there are activists that take things like that and that's just an example, but I've taken other things with other, like it picking up other issues and tried to like formulate them into.

Gloria Purvis: Oh, conflating them?

Cherilyn Holloway: Yes, Conflate. Thank you .

Gloria Purvis: You're welcome. Yeah. I don't know if I've ever seen anybody be attempt to really be pro black. I mean, I just remember there was a big brouhaha about a, pro-life organization on their — was it their Instagram? Around the time of the George Floyd murder, for some reason they put up this unhelpful thing that more black children die in the womb than they do in police custody.

Cherilyn Holloway: They're more safe. They're more safe in police custody. 

Gloria Purvis: Oh, they're safer. I mean, what, how — Just yeah, as if they were trying to, redirect the conversation — again, we can walk and chew gum. And also why, why the need to have to downplay our real suffering? And the real threats to our lives by, uh, from, unjust policing, you know, and to try to say, Oh, no, no, no.

You don't have time to be, You're safe actually. You're safer in police hands than you are as a black child of woman. Please shut up. That it was not only unhelpful, it was, it was, it, it was so insensitive. Was very insensitive. It was so insensitive. And I think there was another, one last instance that I'm sure you all aware of is there was a well known pro-life activist on Twitter that.

Jumped into Bishop Talbot Swan's Twitter feed to tell him that he was a problem with the black community and, and that he was, you know, all this stuff on abortion, which clearly the person had no idea that Bishop Talbot Swan is a member of Church of God in Christ, which is like one of the largest black Christian denominations that is pro-life.

Yep. And, and, and that Bishop Swan had actually written an open letter to Hillary Clinton, challenging her on her abortion support and its negative impact on the black community. But this very well known pro-life white activist just, I guess, felt that she needed to help him understand that the real racism.

Because that's the words she used, that the real racism was an abortion or something like that. I can't remember what it was, but the, the idea that she was gonna tell this man, this civil rights activist, this pro-life, uh, bishop from the Church of God in Christ, that she knew better what the real racism was than he did as a black man moving through this earth.

For the number of years that he did. It was clearly, I guess supposed to be pro-black because she's gonna educate about real racism. But it was just very, ignorant and, tone deaf and condescending. 

Jack Champagne: Yeah, I mean, I can virtually guarantee you that just living as a black person in America makes you more of an expert on racism than just about anybody on the planet.

You know, it, it's one of those things where if you feel the need to redirect discussion about issues that directly affect black communities to abortion. What you're saying is that you don't actually care about black lives. You care about this issue and you want to use that in order to draw attention to the issue you do care about.

And you have to be very, you know, you need to be cognizant of the fact that that's what you're doing — intentionally or not, that's what you're doing. And you know, that is very off putting that, that's something, 

Gloria Purvis: Well, it, it shows a sense of entitlement that you feel entitled to — that we don't have the agency to decide what we wanna discuss, uh, at a particular time and place.

I had a girlfriend that was at, talking about racism and, uh, someone jumped up in the q and a and said, Well, why aren't you talking about abortion? Da da, da, da, as if we were not entitled to discuss racism at that time. You know, somehow we should not be concerned about racism, as it demonstrates itself through, uh, abuses in the legal system, through abuses and policing and whatnot — that over and above all else, we had to only always and everywhere discuss abortion.

And it is so, uh, to me, indicative of that person's, like you said, Jack, lack of respect for us and also doesn't — don't respect that we have our own minds and we can decide what it is that we wanna talk about at any time. Uh, and we can decide what we wanna focus our conversation on a particular moment.

It doesn't mean, uh, we will never address abortion. It means right now this is what we wanna talk about. And if you can't handle that, or you can't participate or listen quietly, please go. Leave. We, we don't need you to be a part of it. We certainly don't need you trying to deflect, you know, from it. Mm-hmm. . 

Jack Champagne: Yeah.

Oh, we just got the five minute warning. 

Cherilyn Holloway: Okay. It's two minutes. It was two minutes. Two minute. Okay.

There aren't, I think Aimee asked about books. One is Killing the Black Body. It used to be up there. It's up here and I can't remember who it's by. Killing the Black Body is a good one about reproductive justice and the history of black women and their bodies. 

Gloria Purvis: Was that Harriet Washington? Oh, I'm thinking Medical Apartheid.

Go ahead. Apartheid — oh, Dorothy Roberts. Killing the Black Body by Dorothy Roberts. Yeah. 

Cherilyn Holloway: And the other one I would highly recommend is, So You Wanna Talk About Race, which is by, uh, Ijeoma Oluo. And that one is just really, really good. It's an easy read, like easy by, not a lot of tension, but a lot of like, true fact. I ha— I have eight kids.

Like it just. 

Gloria Purvis: That's gonna happen. 

Cherilyn Holloway: Wouldn't be a live from me without a child showing up. 

Gloria Purvis: When I mention Medical Apartheid, I will tell you how Washington is very much pro-choice for abortion. But just in terms of, getting some history of the abuses of the black body in the United States, Medical Apartheid by Harriet Washington was a, was a good read. But with warning, she is very much pro-abortion, pro-choice.

And that kind of comes across. Maybe right before we go, if I, I wanna ask each of you maybe, what is the one thing I think that still gives you hope, in discussing racial justice? 

Cherilyn Holloway: Go ahead, Jack.

Jack Champagne: Well, when I, when I, was, uh, when I was, uh, when I was watching, John Lewis's, uh, funeral, uh, a couple years ago, I was, uh, I was with my grandfather. And He, he, he leaned over and told me and, uh, asked me: do you know anything he did while he was in Congress? And that was very funny to me.

But I always thought that, you know, I always, you know, I always think to myself, it's kind of nice that my grandfather who was born in like 1927 is able to take something like that for granted. and, you know, it is, it is, which is to say that, you know, there's a lot of work to do, but we still have accomplished a lot in a relatively short amount of time.

In about less than the eighth of the time that we've been here in this country. We've accomplished a lot and, uh, you know, being able to, uh, share that moment with my grandfather. Is a, is a, is a very nice experience. So, uh, I look forward to being able to, you know, uh, look at an all black Supreme Court with my grandsons.

So. 

Gloria Purvis: Hey. Hmm. 

Cherilyn Holloway: Uh, I think the thing that gives me hope is, is people. I, you know, like I said, what I, what I know most is that people who live their everyday lives who don't think about the abortion issue, or even like the racism issue all the time like I do, are always open to these conversations and always seem like they just learned something.

Like, there's always like a light bulb moment, like, Oh, I never thought about that. And so it's, you know, my hope is in the, that I'm like planting ideas in people's heads and concepts and things for them to continuously think about as they see the news stream, you know, going across. Is, is why I feel like I, I'm always hopeful it, you know, not what I see on the news, not where I see the media focusing attention, not where I see any of these, but the everyday people I talk to, that literally,

have these light bulb moments. That's what continues to give me hope. 

Gloria Purvis: I would say what gives me hope is the prevalence of these kinds of conversations that are happening now. The fact that I've, you know, I'm able to have this conversation with both of you, to me, is — it gives me hope because it signals two things or three things, maybe. A, we exist. B, we can be in community. And three, we can use the microphone that's not controlled by major media to still get our messaging out.

To be able to use the current technology now to give another narrative about pro-life and pro black from the womb to the tomb. And so I hope that the, the three of us together can at some point do this again on a larger stage for more people. So that gives me hope. 

Cherilyn Holloway: Thank you everybody. 

Gloria Purvis: Thank you. 

Herb Geraghty: Thank you.

Thank you three. So, so, so, so, so much for this, uh, for this round table discussion. We are so grateful. I know that the chat has been very active and very grateful for your perspective. This was wonderful. Thank you so much. We are now going into our break. We will reconvene in the sessions at 7:15 Eastern.

Thank you all.