Our Reaction to the Dobbs v. Jackson Leak

In this episode, our hosts Herb Geraghty and Emiliano Vera talk through their initial reactions to the leak of the Supreme Court's draft opinion on the Dobbs v. Jackson case.

 

AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Emiliano Vera: All right, everybody. Welcome back to the Rehumanize podcast. 

[00:00:05] Herb Geraghty: It's happening!

Roe v. Wade is coming down, or at least it looks like it. No guests today. Just going to be me and Emiliano. I'm Herb here as always. We have a lot to talk about when was the last time we recorded? 

[00:00:19] Emiliano Vera: I think it was before I went on Easter break. Yeah, we're right after I came back. I don't know. I have no conception of time anymore.

[00:00:30] Herb Geraghty: That's all right. But yeah, no, the, there obviously there's been a whole lot happening in the whole world, but I think the biggest piece of news is the leaked draft of the Dobbs decision by Politico, like two weeks ago. I time has been totally at a standstill for me since that's happened. I have, I have no idea how long it's been.

I think it's been about two weeks since recording, since we have been recording this. And yeah, so, I mean, if you somehow follow Rehumanize and haven't heard there's been a draft of what looks to be the Supreme court's decision, the majority opinion. In the Dobbs V Jackson case, which for a while we've been saying has the potential to overturn Roe V.

Wade. And the majority of justice says as of May 2nd have ruled in favor of overturning Roe and upholding the 15 week ban. 

[00:01:29] Emiliano Vera: Have you read the the opinion and it's a super majority, right? It was six three, not five, four, right. 

[00:01:36] Herb Geraghty: I 

wait, I'm pulling it up now because I couldn't, I couldn't remember who, who signed onto it.

No, as of the, the leak, it was only Thomas Gor Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Coney Barrett and Alito Roberts hadn't signed on, but it wasn't, we, we still don't know. We only have the draft of the opinion. Right. I don't know if he is. Concurring or joining a dissenting or doing something else that's funky, or if he just hasn't decided yet, and he's going to sign on to the majority.

Obviously it wasn't supposed to come out. And so we we don't exactly know. We know that the justices can change their mind up until the day that it's released, that this was supposed to be sort of a long process of editing these drafts. So we, we have no reason to believe that the final that what has been published is the total final draft.

But if it is what is going to be released as the official opinion, it rocks to answer your question. Yes. I read most of it. I'm not a legal scholar, but luckily my girlfriend is a law student then. And she has read the entire document and the, that first night that it really, it was released. She read the entire thing and was pulling out important quotes for me.

And so that was extremely helpful to understand exactly what was going on because I read the Politico argument and basically the, the messages, the Roe V. Wade was egregiously wrong from the start and it's coming down. And this 15 week ban is constitutional which of course will open the gates to banning abortion in other ways and earlier in gestation because we no longer have the the precedent of Roe upholding the imaginary constitutional right to abortion.

But yes, I've read most of it. But a lot of the kind of footnotes I'm like, this is all legal jargon. I don't fully need to understand because I'm not a constitutional lawyer. But yeah, what I've read, I like I'm excited. It seems good. 

[00:03:40] Emiliano Vera: Yeah. I read probably like 20 pages of it. And like on Facebook and kind of like the, the week afterwards or not just Facebook, I'm not really on Facebook a lot.

And the social media is there were like some, several kinds of like pro-choice people citing some of the, the language is used in decisions as kind of like apocalyptic. Like a harbinger of what's to come for other rights, like that were established by privacy's. So either LGBT rights or, or rights to birth control or something like that like things established by Griswold and other cases what do you make of those kind of interpretations that like, oh, the, this, this document that came out are setting up to just like knocked down like a whole other slew of anything that has to do with privacy is going to get overturned now.

[00:04:49] Herb Geraghty: Yeah. So I think that. I when I first saw kind of the uproar about that from a lot of pundits I was also concerned because at that point I hadn't read the decision yet that the actual Monday night I I happen to already be in DC for other events. And so when it was released, the people I was with and some other people from rehumanize and partner organizations were outside the court within the hour demonstrating.

And by the time we were there, I think the article came out at like eight 30 and we were there by nine 30 and there was already hundreds of people demonstrating almost all. Pro-abortion. I think that a lot of people just heard the news and immediately wanted to protest. And the pro-life movement had not come together yet.

So it, it really was just kind of us out there at the Supreme court. And so I, I did not have time that night to actually read the opinion. And so that next day I also saw a lot of that, like Alito is coming for all of our rights there it's, it's not just abortion that we know there is no right to an abortion.

There's no right to take the life of another human being. However, because of the sort of political movement that has championed the rights of the unborn I think people had some legitimate concerns about other rights that some people claim did build off of decisions like Griswold and Roe and Casey.

And so like at rehumanize international, we don't really take official positions on things outside of issues of aggressive violence. And so. You know, in our capacity as an organization, we don't really take strong positions on things like birth control or LGBT privacy rights to yeah. Just don't hurt people.

But as an individual, you know, I have political positions outside of the, the mission of rehumanize international. And so I was concerned about the, kind of the, the claims that the draft decision seems to be gearing up to come after other rights particularly LGBT rights that were determined in like Lawrence and Obergefell in terms of like, you know, same-sex sexual relationships and marriage.

And so I think like if I spent a couple hours being like, oh no, should I be concerned about this opinion? Like, should, should I actually, you know, Advocate, you know, there's not much to do for the Supreme court. They're not there, they're an unelected body. So you just kind of have to hope that they do what you want.

But I did share those concerns, but once I actually read most of the opinion I it's, it's hard for me to really see it that way that the Supreme court is coming after other privacy rights. I mean, in a leader's opinion 

[00:07:35] Emiliano Vera: seemed like very, very like specific about like Roe vs Wade and abortion.

[00:07:45] Herb Geraghty: Yeah. I mean, let me pull up some of it, because I think that Alito in the draft goes out of his way to be very, very explicit that this is only about abortion. In his discussion of privacy rights. Let me pull up the quote. Here it is, this was from the opinion. Roe's defenders characterize the abortion, right?

As similar to the rights recognized in past decisions involving matters, such as intimate sexual relations, contraception, and marriage, but a portion is fundamentally different as both Roe and Casey acknowledge because it destroys what those decision called fetal human life and what the law. Now, before us referring to the Mississippi law describes as an unborn human beings.

At further distinguishing abortion from same-sex marriage. Alito says none of the other decisions cited by Rohan Casey involved, the critical moral question posed by abortion. And then he goes on to say that therefore, these are unrelated and do not take what we are saying about there not being a privacy, right.

To dismember a baby to mean that other privacy rights are non-existent. In general, I mean, I'm not a constitutional layer. I know that a lot of people have, you know, even like LGBT affirming or LGBT people have sort of said like actually these decisions that we have, like trying to base them on the privacy, right.

That were established in decisions like RO are actually not great legal precedent anyway, because a lot of these privacy rights always said like this doesn't it. Maybe I support the ruling, like plenty for 50 years pro abortion I'm pro choice legal scholars have been saying like, no, I think abortion should be legal, but the constitutional 

[00:09:30] Emiliano Vera: thing, like a bad, badly determined decision.

[00:09:35] Herb Geraghty: Exactly. And people, you know, sort of on all sides of the issue, I've said similar things about . And so I think that it Alito comes from a particular position on you know, LGBT marriage rights that I would, I would probably disagree with him on. However, when the court looks at previous court decisions to determine precedent, what they're looking at is what's actually written in the opinion, not, oh, well, what did Sam Alito think at the time that he was writing this?

And the language in this draft decision is explicit that this is referring to abortion because it is distinct from other privacy rights, whether you believe in these privacy rights that they are found in the constitution or not, or if they're just good in and of themselves, and they're not explicitly in the constitution or they are or whatever.

I think it's important to note that it is very different. Then, then these other rights, because they have the question of this unborn human being. I think that these past couple of weeks, since the decision has leaked, I I've seen from pundits and the media and, you know, people on social media, a lot of fear-mongering about different things.

I think that this kind of LGBT rights has been one that that's been particularly effective in scaring people about this draft decision. I think also you know, misinformation about miscarriage and particular like miscarriage management procedures, and it may be necessary. Topic pregnancies, things that people do have, I think, legitimate fears about.

Because they've been told by the media and by the abortion industrial complex that pro-life Americans are trying to criminalize things like miscarriage and treatment for ectopic pregnancies, which is just not true. I think every, every once in a while there like a fringe legislator that doesn't know what he's doing, there was one in Ohio once that that it made it into a bill that treatment for epileptic pregnancy, though, it wouldn't be illegal.

Like it said something like, ideally this would be the, the embryo would be reimplanted in the womb, which at this point there's not really the medical technology for that to happen. Anyway. So the only treatment for atopic pregnancy includes ending the life or the, or the child's life ending as a result in order to save the life of the mother.

I have never met a pro-life person who actually opposes that. I've never met a pro-life person who opposes DNCs for miscarriages, for children who have already died. However, we see this fear-mongering and propaganda from a lot of people in the media and the abortion industrial complex in order to intimidate people into thinking that the status quo is kind of this neutral.

Human centered way of legislating abortion. But the reality is that the status quo is egregious. We in this country, we have two over 2000, about 2,500 individual children being killed every day by abortion. Like this, it is extremist. We have abortion post viability in many states in this country, totally legal with, you know, not even talking about like medically indicated ones where, you know, the, the woman's health may be in danger or the child may, 

[00:13:10] Emiliano Vera: which we know the majority of post viability abortions are elective and not done to save the life of the mother or because of fetal non compatibility with life or something like that.

[00:13:21] Herb Geraghty: Yeah. I think that basically these past couple of weeks have been an exercise for me, sort of in on the front lines, talking to people. Outside the court protests and on social media and speaking to the media, it's really just been an exercise in correcting a lot of misinformation. I mean, plenty of people still believe that overturning Roe will make abortion illegal.

Like that's, that's just not true. It will. It will send me a shoe back to the states and legislators will be able to listen to their constituents who want abortion to be illegal in those states and legislate accordingly. Although we know that the, the abortion issue will still be extremely important in, in many states that that seemed to be signaling that they not only are going to continue to have sort of extremist post viability abortion laws.

But they're actually trying to become sanctuary cities for abortion, where they are putting taxpayer money into getting people from other states into their states in order to get abortions there. And so I, the people I think on both sides, there's just not a lot of clarity about exactly what this decision means.

If it, if it even comes down, if it comes down in this way we've seen the pro-abortion movement trying to actively intimidate the justices into changing their minds. We've seen you know, through protests, including outside the homes of these justices explicitly telling them, you know, we're not going to accept this decision.

You need to change your mind. I'm hopeful that, you know, Alito and Kavanaugh and Coney Barrett and the rest of them aren't successfully intimidated. And I, I don't think they will be But I think that it's important right now that we, as pro-lifers push back against that narrative that we show the reality of the pro-life movement, which was, which is that we are a movement that exists to protect human rights and to serve pregnant people.

And in particular, low income women who face you know, difficult pregnancy circumstances and, and make it clear that we are standing with them, that, you know, the abortion industrial complex for years has pushed this narrative that abortion is needed, that violence is needed in order to have equality or liberation or As Yellen recently said, you know, it needed for the economy, which is truly shocking, which is like, that's some 

[00:15:58] Emiliano Vera: evil capitalist propaganda.

[00:16:03] Herb Geraghty: Yeah. 

[00:16:03] Emiliano Vera: It's wild. To me, just the blatant illiteracy in the general public about what abortion laws in the United States actually are compared to abortion laws in the entire rest of the world, including you know, the established social democracies of Western Europe, like a country, for example, like Sweden, where abortion is a permitted.

Up to the first. I can't remember if it's 12 or 14 weeks, but like throughout Europe there are limits on on abortion that are less than the law that is being challenged in the Supreme court from Mississippi. So like, you can talk about the differences in like access, for example, where in the United States you have to pay for abortions out of pocket.

Except for in the largest states that commit the most abortions like California and New York that are covered by Medicare. And in which case it is socializing. You don't have to pay out of pocket if you are under a certain income level. But for most of Europe, most of the world The the week limits on abortion are already much, like, much more than any type of limits are tolerated at all in the United States without having like a massive up a massive uproar about it.

[00:17:49] Herb Geraghty: Yeah. I think that if the majority of EU countries in particular, 12 weeks as the limit for elective abortion, 

[00:17:56] Emiliano Vera: yes. I saw somebody somebody who I, I like and follow on Twitter said something a while ago about, oh, Greece is a really interesting example that it's a, a socially conservative religious country where abortion is legal and publicly funded and then asterisk up to 12 weeks.

And I was like, you realize that the Mississippi law puts a 15. Week limit on abortion, right? Like there's just a complete disconnect from reality of what abortion law currently is in the United States, a complete disconnect from reality about what overturning Roe would actually do, which once again, would not make abortion illegal in the United States.

It would return to the status quo that it was before 1973, where the states could it like through their own democratic legislatures decide themselves, you know, before an unelected body of nine male justices decided that Nope, this is just the law now. In the article that I'm writing for rehumanize right now, I also point out that the legalization of abortion.

Pretty closely followed the urban uprisings of the sixties in the civil rights movement. And like the, the debate out of New York especially is pretty like blatant they're like, yeah, we hope that we'll be able to reduce the amount of births on do you unwed mothers and two people on welfare.

And then like other than states like New York and California the other states that were taking out borrow or that were taking up the liberalization of abortion law before Roe was decided, were the states in the south that were in the process of basically getting reprimanded for their sterilization laws that were horrible and Found to be illegal and basically just replacing sterilization laws with abortion.

So it was not like a bunch of liberal states. It was Republican California, Republican New York and the south that were the states that were liberalizing abortion before Roe just came in and did everything, you know, funded the entire 

[00:20:15] Herb Geraghty: point about that we all know that the sort of rise of the abortion movement was very much led by the leaders in the eugenics movement in the, in the, at that time.

And I think that the, that point you made about, you know, reducing, you know, it was clear, it was clearly racial and it was clearly able to rest. But I think the, the, the class-based nature of it too is so important. Like you said, like, We want to limit the amount of people on welfare and their ability to continue having children, because that is more children that need state support.

And I think that we talk about that as, you know, as kind of a memory of the past that now the abortion rights movement has really situated itself on the left and as a movement, you know, for social justice and for women's rights. And for health, health care justice which is, you know, to us or appalled by, because we know that abortion is, is an act of violence.

And so it doesn't really make sense in that context. But they sort of no longer lead with eugenics first. Rhetoric. However, in these past couple of weeks, when I have been talking to people, I've seen the 

[00:21:34] Emiliano Vera: eugenic rhetoric pop out on social media and just like in comments 

[00:21:40] Herb Geraghty: and I, and I, I'm not great at the, at the discourse on social media.

I have. A difficult time talking to people behind a screen, because I think that it's just not my calling. I'm much better at face-to-face conversation. And I, because I think that it's happened multiple times because when we were out there in front of the court, about half the time, you know, people really came up to us and they saw our signs with secular pro-life messaging and consistent life ethic messaging and you know, sort of liberal leaning or left leaning pro-life messaging.

And they came up to us and they were really surprised and interested, actually interested in what we have to say. And so I think that for a lot of people, their guard was down a little bit when they were discussing this. And I heard so many people explicitly say, you know, bring up things like, well, our tax dollars are going to have to pay for all of these children born.

If abortion is illegal and 

[00:22:39] Emiliano Vera: they should have been doing that. 

[00:22:41] Herb Geraghty: Well, so my thing Emiliano is that what, when they would say that almost every time, I would say. Do you really mean, do you really mean that? Do you really have a problem with poor people having more children? And they would sort of think about it for a moment and then, and then say, oh, no, no, no.

Not if they want to, I don't mind if my tax dollars are paying for, you know, things like WIC and good programs that help you know, mothers and children and low-income families. However, in the back of their mind, they've sort of been told that that's one of the reasons that they need abortion. And I think that, or that we need abortion as a country.

More particularly usually that poor women need abortion. But I think that it's interesting that that messaging is more subliminal now and that most of the people who are using it, I don't think actually mean it. I think that most of these people are actually sort of liberal minded and they, they, they are not.

They are not actual eugenicists, but they have that sort of implicit bias against poor people having children that, that they haven't sufficiently unlearned yet. Because that eugenic rhetoric isn't at the forefront of the movement because they know it's embarrassing and they know it's something that they, you know, the leaders of the movement know that they need to hide it behind the euphemism of choice.

[00:24:06] Emiliano Vera: Well, and I think you see lots of middle-aged and older people still using that, like more readily using that rhetoric because that was the rhetoric until probably like, like the early two thousands like that they, they didn't catch on to like, oh, maybe we're being a little bit too racist too, obviously racist and classist in our messaging until like probably.

I mean, the, the, the coalition and that formed of the democratic party of being like, like liberal international capitalists with like some select human rights groups or like kind of issue based groups like that. Wasn't that wasn't and kind of like leaving unions and workers in the dust, like that wasn't really fully complete until the late nineties or early two thousands.

So like the, just the material conditions for that coalition, where they would have to change their rhetoric to not be explicitly racist or eugenicist, like wasn't there until relatively recently.

[00:25:27] Herb Geraghty: So, what have you felt like has been your experience sort of in your kind of personal life and in an online with the reaction to this decision? I guess both from pro-abortion people in your life and from pro-life people? 

[00:25:45] Emiliano Vera: So I have been kind of a reticent to comment directly on, I mean, the, my, most of my interactions now with Americans are on social media.

So I've been kind of cautious to say anything directly on social media, because I've been like, who is everyone is just kind of just blatantly repeating misinformation right now. And should I wait to let people be less mad for a little bit? Or like, does it like, you know, there are studies on this where, you know, responding to factually incorrect information with factually correct information to somebody who is just mad about something doesn't correct them.

And so I've just kind of been watching and on the one hand, very, very proud of not just rehumanize and other kind of consistent life ethic groups, but also like even a lot of the more conservative pro-life groups that I, you know, agree with on abortion, but, you know, might not agree with on a lot of other things.

I've been very encouraged by a lot of their statements. And I rehumanize signed on to a letter that was promoted by a whole huge spectrum of pro-life groups. You know, saying if, if Roe is overturned in abortion at some point does become illegal again that we do not want to see like women charged for crimes.

And so I think that has been the, 

[00:27:41] Herb Geraghty: and the people charged for crimes. There are people who have abortions charged for crimes. If a woman is an abortionist then she should be charged with the crime of. 

[00:27:50] Emiliano Vera: So exactly. So, so pregnant, pregnant people who choose to have an abortion to acquire an abortion it should not be the ones who are facing the legal penalties of it.

And just kind of general, very strong reaffirmations of, you know, love them both. We're here for the woman and the child and counteracting a lot of the very kind of negative and hysterical misinformation that is being promoted by the other side. And then there's, then there's the other side, you know, I running a lot of leftist circles and things like that, that To see them kind of promoting this, the type of classes and racist propaganda that is justifiable when talking about abortion and completely against everything that they stand for, everything every other time has just been very annoying discouraging.

For me, especially since I gave up social media for lent, and this is like the first thing that happens, like right after I get back onto social media. And I'm like oh, I don't want to, I don't want to see you guys. But yeah just kind of a lot of nervous waiting, I guess for me. 

[00:29:02] Herb Geraghty: Yeah, I'll agree.

I think that I have pretty impressed with the kind of traditional mainstream pro-life movement in this moment. I think that there could be a tendency. Among some people or groups to want to take this moment to kind of gloat because the reality is like, we want, like, we're, we're winning. It looks like we're about, we're about to have a major victory in terms of the amount of organizing and work that has gone into, you know, creating a reality where this could be possible 

[00:29:37] Emiliano Vera: it is an undeniably good thing.

And I do think there is absolutely room for, you know, healthy celebration. Yeah, exactly. 

[00:29:45] Herb Geraghty: I think I've seen that I've seen a healthy celebration and I haven't seen, and I've seen from most pro-life organizations and leaders. Really taking this moment to lead with compassion. And I appreciate that because I think that like we've been talking about right now, misinformation and, and really disinformation about what it will look like in a post Roe America is rampant.

And I think that there are a lot of fears. I think that there's a lot of fear mongering going on. And as a result, a lot of. People in this country who have the capacity to get pregnant are scared when they're being told by people who they look up to that if you have a miscarriage, you could go to jail or that perhaps certain procedures like DNE for miscarriage or DNC for a miscarriage could be could be criminalized and therefore unavailable.

And so you might die of sepsis for, you know, the, the crime of, of your child dying a natural death before they're born. And I think that I, I have been impressed with pro-life leaders, sort of calmly being able to respond to this information, this misinformation and show them that no, that's not what we're doing.

I think that this letter that I am proud to have signed onto from national right to life, but very explicitly says not only. Do we not want laws that criminalize people for their pregnancy outcomes? We not only do we just hope that's not the case, but we, as pro-life leaders are going to work to ensure that is not the case.

You know, we have connections with anti-abortion legislators and we're willing to hold their feet to the fire to ensure that our values of truly loving them, both aren't ignored in favor of sort of retributive prosecutorial mindset of just wanting to punish people who are in desperate situations and feel like abortion is their only option or people who have the, you know, the horrible, unfortunate reality of, of a miscarriage.

And I think that I have been excited to be able to work with a diverse coalition of pro-life people from, you know, all different sorts of backgrounds and across the entire political spectrum, who've been able to come together and say, no, this work isn't over all row does let's turn it back to the states.

And so of course the work isn't over because there's going to be plenty of states where abortion will still be legal and pre-born children will not be protected. So we're going to need to continue to work on making legislative change, but also our work isn't over because half of what the pro-life movement does, isn't legislative at all.

It's about serving pregnant people in our communities and serving young families and young, pregnant uh, young young parenting people young parents, so that they don't feel like abortion as their only option. And I think that the pro-life movement has been doing that over these past few weeks, you know, This decision hasn't even been final yet.

But you know, throughout this time there's still people in our communities who need our support. And so throughout all this time, pregnancy centers have still been operating. Maternity homes have still been operating. We've seen, I've been out on the sidewalk in front of abortion clinics, doing the regular sidewalk outreach that I do, and that I encourage everyone to do.

If you have an abortion clinic in your community, which you likely do if you live in the United States that you know, this work is, is still needed, regardless of if the decision comes out the way we want it to, or not like the, the, the goal of actually making abortion unthinkable is something that is serious to pro-life leaders and pro-life community members.

And I think that I have. Heartened to see that that work hasn't been just totally forgotten because we've had the, we've had this victory, or it appears as though we're about to have a victory within the next two months. 

[00:33:56] Emiliano Vera: I think just as the pro-life movement has gotten more internationalized and less focused on just the United States.

Especially with in the wake of some pretty devastating losses in Ireland, across Latin America. I think they're like the experiences of leaders there who were like, oh, we. Waited until way too late to start organizing this and assuming that just because the law was on our side, then we didn't have to have a mass movement behind us.

And so I think there is definitely some good promise, I think in the reaction of pro-life organizations across the spectrum to the leak that, oh, like even if we like, quote unquote win in this, this time, like, that doesn't mean that we're just gonna, you know, pack it up anymore. Because one legislatively there's still other there's still other battles to fight across like literally every 50 states.

But yeah, that there are social aspects to the pro-life work that's still need to be done and still people that still needs to be advocated. And I think, yeah, that's kind of what caught lat America by surprise is just that, you know, all you need is a majority of judges. One time basically to, to implement abortion laws and it, if you're not ready for it, then you're going to get taken off guard and organizing after the fact is too late.

[00:35:32] Herb Geraghty: Yeah. Yup. And I mean, in terms of our work, not being done, just look at the mission of rehumanize even if the decision came down and abortion was illegal across the United States you know, there, there of course would be all of that work of still supporting pregnant people in our community. But our work as a consistent life ethic movement, like that's only one issue to tick off the list.

We still have war and the death penalty and police brutality and torture and euthanasia and all forms of violent discrimination and abuse. So I think, I think that this continues to be a moment of celebration while, and a moment of optimistic celebration, because we're hopeful that the decision will come out sooner than later.

Probably around June, the end of June. But you know, The, the moment of celebration really can only be a short moment before we get back to work. I know, you know, even at the Rehumanize team were sort of planning out our summer and this Dobbs decision being up in the air makes planning things hard because we know that if the decision does come out on a random Monday, we're going to need to mobilize immediately and get all of our supporters out there to continue representing and doing this work and demonstrating for, you know, for the unborn and for this movement.

But we also have plenty of other stuff that we're doing this summer. Even outside of abortion, we have two anti-war conferences that we are you know, partnering with and, and and participating in, we have an anti-death penalty week of action. That's going to be if Roe V Wade gets, or if the Dobbs decision gets decided at the end of June, when we think it will be.

That next day, I'm going to start the an anti-death penalty week of action which is going to be a total whirlwind because I'm sure that things will be very busy and picking up after the Dobbs decision does finally come out. So all of us to say that there, there just is so much work to be done on all of these issues.

And so yes, take this moment to celebrate, but more importantly, figure out what it is that you can be doing within this movement or within other movements or within your own community to serve the needs that, that aren't being met. And to advocate for justice, for, to advocate for justice and for human rights for all human beings.

Yeah. 

[00:38:02] Emiliano Vera: So you've been doing a lot of the. Talking to the media talking to counter protestors, or I don't know, maybe you guys are considered the counter protesters. What what,

how do you talk to people? This is something that I'm usually great at, but I have found myself, like, not like, I, I don't think that I would be able to, I feel like I won't be able to help the narrative very much right now while it feels so heated in charge. But then I asked myself, you know, we'll ever be able to say anything again, because like, it's always going to be human in charge now during this entire battle.

So like for, I, I think it's going to be very uncomfortable for especially people in. Either more liberal or leftist pro-life groups or in the consistent life ethic. Where probably like we have a lot, like the majority of our friends are, you know, other liberal leftist people who are pro-choice like what do we do?

How do we, how do we like bring this up? When it's so just heated, but also just filled with disinformation. 

[00:39:25] Herb Geraghty: Yeah. So I think it depends heavily on context. I think that I have been having a lot of very sort of high conflict conversations lately because I've been out, you know, doing this kind of rehumanizing discourse with the people who are passionate enough to show up to a protest.

For abortion. And so I think that those conversations are going to be a lot different than people then conversations with people who you might have already in your life. So I can say for the conversations that I've had, it's been really important to take our breath and to actually listen to what the other side is saying.

I think that I have had people come up to me and, you know, sort of come up to me. And some of the people in our team who have been, you know, holding signs and demonstrating in these, these moments of more calm during protests, or even after protests when things are dying down and come up and say, Hey, I really just want to talk.

I want to hear your perspective. And then they ask me. You know, well, why are you against abortion? And I begin speaking and I say, well, so I believe that it should be illegal to kill human beings. And the scientific consensus is that, and then I can't even begin to sort of, you know, make my argument for why I'm anti-abortion, which, you know, if you want, the, the totality of you can go to rehumanizeintl.org/abortion. 

But essentially that, you know, the scientific community is out of consensus. We see that the unborn is undeniably a human being. They are living their whole, they are genetically distinct, and I believe it should be illegal to kill human beings. And I see abortion as, you know, a part of that. And so it should be illegal.

And that, you know, there's a lot of other nuances that you need to have in the conversation, but that's kind of my, my main pitch that I make to start the conversation. But I have found that in, in probably most of the conversations that I've had, I'm not even able to get. A fifth word in my main argument before, you know, the person who approached me to have a conversation sort of snaps back and starts yelling at me.

What about rape? What about miscarriage? What about this? You think women should go to jail? You think this, you, Donald Trump said this, your movements as this sort of like a lot of, you know, just sudden reactions that I think are caused by pain and fear because of, you know, the misinformation and the perception that they have of the pro-life movement.

And so it's been really important for me to, to really not kind of snap back in the way that might be natural to me. When someone is lying about me to my face saying that I've voted for Donald Trump and I support all these policies that I don't support and that I, that I do there. And then I, yada yada.

You know, it's easy for me to want to say, no, I didn't shut up. You're wrong. But I've had to remind myself that these people often are coming from a place of fear and have a really serious distrust for the pro-life movement. And so I think that listening to their concerns and affirming their concerns has been important in this moment.

You know, for the people who I tell you, the criminalization of miscarriage has come up in 100% of the conversations that I've had with people on the ground. And so I don't know if that's actually reflective of this wider moment, but I think that it's really been telling to me. And I, I think I sort of have seen pro-life people online respond to that kind of thing with like an eye roll emoji, like, oh, come on, no one wants to criminalize miscarriage, like, you know, kind of diminishing their concerns and talking over them.

And I, and I believe, you know, that's just not a very nice way to communicate with people, but it's also less effective because I, I have had these conversations where, you know, if someone tells me, I am really concerned that I'm going to have a miscarriage and then not be able to, you know, have that child removed in a DNC procedure or, you know, whatever needs to be done, or I'm going to have enough topic pregnancy, and it's going to be illegal for me to it's going to be illegal to get treatment for that, which will lead to my death.

Like that is a real fear that a lot of women have. Based on the misinformation that they've been fed from the, the abortion industrial complex and from the media on this. And so I think that hearing them out and actually listening to them and sort of nodding along and making it clear, like, yeah, no, that, that is really scary.

I'm really sorry that, that, that you're afraid of that. And then once they, you know, sort of tire themselves out at yelling at you from yelling at you about that responding, can I let you know, like ask, actually asking them, can I let you know what I think about that? And actually what the laws that have been proposed and what the trigger laws that are already on the books that are going to go into effect once Roe is overturned.

Can I tell you what those actually say? I hear that you're very scared and I want to let you know that we in the pro-life. I don't want that and that our legislators don't want that. And that if there ever are legislators who are working to do things like criminalized treatment of atopic pregnancies or miscarriage management, that we will be with you, and that we are with you in saying absolutely not, we never want a person to go to jail for experiencing the loss of their child, whether it's through, you know, an atopic pregnancy that needs to be at ended or through a natural miscarriage or through, you know, one of those other thing procedures that can be called abortions by certain medical companies.

But when we're talking, when the pro-life movement is talking about abortion, we're talking about elective abortions in which we are intentionally ending the life of a living human child. 

[00:45:31] Emiliano Vera: The the, the, the term in romance languages to just be like a lot clearer. So it's in Spanish and French. It's a voluntary interruption of pregnancy.

Wow. 

[00:45:45] Herb Geraghty: That is mine because that is the heart of yeah. In 

[00:45:50] Emiliano Vera: In Spanish, aborto means and any, any like premature ending of a pregnancy, natural or unnatural. So like the the, the legal language and like the, the language that is officially used, I think lots of times, actually more in Europe than in Latin America where like American influence has allowed, like the word just aborted the abortion to like be the, the main word.

And then also like with all of the confusions that come along with it, because abortion, abortion means everything rather than.

Or it's like it's equivalent in French, which is like what the laws actually say, but like that. And like it uses the, the the abbreviation IBE and like that I feel just linguistically it gives a lot more clarity about, you know, what the, what the actual procedure that we are discussing is. 

[00:46:50] Herb Geraghty: Yeah.

Yeah, because that is, I think these linguistic differentiation. Are extremely important and often overlooked by pro-life people. Because I think that I know people who have had a natural miscarriage and then they are totally just served and upset to find that when they get a bill back from the hospital, it says that they had an abortion because technically speaking for a lot of insurance companies and in the medical field, natural miscarriages are spontaneous abortions.

And then the, the kind of natural stigma that is attached to abortion. And of course there should be a stigma against abortion because it is an act of violence. That stigma is carried over to women who have natural miscarriages which there should be no stigma about like, that's just a horrible, natural death and, you know, we mourn with them.

And so I think that. The abortion industry and the sort of pundits who push pro-abortion rhetoric, they intentionally take that confusion and that unfortunate linguistic situation where there isn't a clear word for elective abortion, for a reason not to save the life of the mother and that the pop culture pop in pop culture.

We mainly just call that abortion. They take that and they intentionally stoke that fear and try to push the narrative that pro-life people want to criminalize things like treatment for ectopic pregnancy, and miscarriage or stillbirth. And I think that, you know, to finish my earlier thought, what is important right now is correcting that misinformation.

But doing so in a compassionate way that recognizes. Yeah. If you believe that people are trying to criminalize miscarriage, that is really scary. I can understand why you are screaming at me right now. And you're so upset with me if you really think that's what I believe. Let me demonstrate to you how that isn't true.

And let me commit to you that I'm on your side when it comes to this issue. And that I am going as a pro-life leader, I am going to work to ensure that no legislator thinks that it is ever appropriate to criminalize these pregnancy outcomes. And so I think that that has been really important, like getting past that, those, those initial fears and reservations about overturning Roe V Wade, before I can really actually talk about my position on abortion, which of course is that it is an act of violence and that it should be illegal.

But you have to be able to get people to that place where they are ready for, you know, the kind of difficult work of re-examining, you know, your deeply held political views on, on this issue. And you need to get them to trust you that you, you know, you are not this caricature of, you know, the, the evil right-wing legislator in Texas who just wants to send women to jail for having abortions or for having miscarriages or for you know, whatever.

I think that this moment for me has really been about deescalating, a lot of conversations and reminding myself and honestly reminding them sometimes like that. We're all just people here that I have a particular political position and. Particular political position. I do not think that you are evil for supporting abortion.

I think that most people who support abortion deeply care about the rights of women and people who can get pregnant and that they are concerned for their wellbeing. And I think that most of them haven't considered enough about the rights of the unborn child. And I think that our work is often, you know, educating them about the science of embryology and fetal development and the reality of what takes place during an abortion procedure and the horror that takes place during that act of violence.

But you know, making it clear to them that I don't think that they're stupid or evil for disagreeing with me on this. I think it's likely that they may be misinformed and that they may be repeating misinformation and correcting it when necessary. But that I think that we should be able to come together and find common ground.

I mean, things like how to better support pregnant and parenting people, whether or not abortion is illegal. And, and those sort of, you know, public policies as well as private charity and the different work that needs to be done in order to create a culture of life where regardless of if abortion is legal or not, people are supported in their pregnancies and in their choice to, to choose life.

And I think that highlighting common ground and working with people to, to really rehumanize this discourse and to rehumanize, you know, people on the other side of the aisle, whether that is, you know, the pro-abortion person or their perception of us as pro-life people has been the primary goal. I think that I haven't had a lot of really strong.

Pro-life conversions in this moment because tensions are so high. However I have, and I, and I've seen my team members who are out in, you know, even better at me, even better than me doing this discourse talking to these people and I'm seeing them plant seeds that at least can sort of give people a little bit of ease that we are not slipping into some sort of Handmaid's tale, dystopia, where you know, women are going to be oppressed and you know, all of our privacy rights and all of our rights are under attack that the people standing on the other side of the issue than you, if you're a pro-abortion person.

Our justice minded. They're deeply concerned about the rights of children and they are also deeply concerned about the wellbeing and welfare of their parents. And, and looking for those places where we can come together and support people. Again, and I keep saying sort of like, regardless of if abortion is on the table or not, because whether or not abortion is legal, those needs are still going to be there.

And I think that we need to pro-life people, especially recommit ourselves in this moment to the service that we already do for people in those difficult pregnancy circumstances. 

[00:53:39] Emiliano Vera: Yeah. And also like. It's frustrating to me because I think this could be, and you know, we're doing the work, you're doing the work more on the ground than I am.

I'm just sitting at my computer and writing blog posts. I keep, I keep mentioning this, but everybody watch out for my upcoming thorough economic analysis of the function of abortion to the capitalist class and how it relates to the racist policies of incarceration and defunding of the welfare state after the 1970s.

But like this, the thing that frustrates me is that this could be a moment to discuss, you know, if the media wanted to be honest, how you know, like, what is it, 70% of people They always say that two thirds of people want a row to be upheld. They don't say that, you know, when you actually explain the trimester system, like two thirds of people support putting a limit on abortion to the end of the first trimester and that's which Roe prevents explicitly for those of you don't, who don't know Roe makes abortion effectively legal out all well low-brow and then Casey effectively makes abortion legal throughout all nine months of pregnancy.

Definitely up until the end of the second trimester. And then after that basically state by state. And so that, that is like wild. Out of step with public opinion which generally sees like even people who consider themselves just kind of, I would say like naturally you're apolitical pro-choice of like, ah, we shouldn't mess with people too much.

The end of the first trimester is where people tend to draw the line of when it's permissible to have abortion, which is also incidentally the line that most European countries draw. So like rather than like allowing us to have a a discourse in which we acknowledged, like the broad overlap like let's say like two-thirds of what we're saying.

Like most people agree on it's just like this hyper partisan, like narrowing in, on a very tiny. Minority of cases and a very tiny minority of what people think is allowable and permissible.

You had a much more hopeful wrapping up to this than I did 

[00:56:20] Herb Geraghty: now. It's like, I, I mean, I think the whole thing is hopeful. I think that, like right now, we're kind of, you know, it's, it's easy to kind of get in the weeds of exactly what next steps are, but this is a very hopeful moment. Like I think that life wins.

I think that, you know, I'm never going to forget. Being, I was in an Airbnb with a bunch of pro-life friends already. And we were actually making signs or a different thing, a different pro-life event that we were planning that had to be canceled. And I guess, postponed because then the decision was leaked and suddenly we had to respond to that instead.

But you know, being surrounded by, you know, this community of pro-lifers, you know, I was with people, someone was as young as I think, 20 years old. And then there was also a 16 year old that joined us later that night. And then as old as someone who I believe was like 74 and then, you know, just seeing this totally diverse group of people come together.

When I think I was the first person to get the news, cause Maria Oswalt who is just chronically online sent me the link cause she saw it immediately and sent it to me. And so I read it and I think I read it and I didn't really understand it until I was like halfway through the article exactly what the implications of this were.

And so I said it out loud and then sent it to everyone in the room and we all silently read the article for you know, about five minutes. And then we were like, okay, so we got to get to the court. And so I think like since then I really have been in that. Kind of moment of, again, celebration and joy and jubilation that finally, it looks like we're going to see some justice for the 63 million plus children who have been killed by the abortion regime in this country.

And so I think that, you know, as we're going, as I've said, and we're going to have to keep saying and doing the work is not done. But this is certainly a moment of incredible joy and hope. And I am excited to, to be a part of it with all of my, all of my friends and all of the people in my life who have, you know, like, you know, Mike who was there and was in the seventies who have been working on this, some of them for like 50 years to see this moment and to be there and, you know, like I'm on the bandwagon or I've only been in the movement for like six years and I, I get to be on the winning side.

So that rocks. But to, to be with this community of justice minded, human centered human rights, activists who are seeing a victory. I mean, it's, it, it is a moment of extreme joy and extreme hope. And you know, of course the work doesn't end here and we, and we need to continue this fight in, you know, on many fronts, but overall optimism, joy, et cetera.

So that's a, that's a happy thought to end this episode of the Rehumanize podcast on I hope that we get it edited and out in time before Roe actually does come down. Because again, we don't exactly know when that's gonna happen. Which is such an interesting policy about like the Supreme court just refuses to let us know when they release their, their decisions.

But my guess is it's going to be in late June. Other people feel differently, but that I'm, I'm pretty sure it's going to be in late June. So don't quote me on that, but I will, we'll see, I guess, 

[00:59:48] Emiliano Vera: amen. A woman in any of them. I I'm a yeah, well, let's see. What's going on. Let's see what is going on by the time this podcast comes out because who knows?

I am just very, very grateful in this moment to Be really, it seems like on the, on the right side of history like fighting for adjust, cause that looks like it's going to win. Which is like not always a, it's a really weird, really weird spot to be in sometimes when you usually see yourself, like on the losing side, lots of times.

And it's, it's cool to not just be, you know, like treading water or, you know, trying to swim upstream, but actually going with the current of history. So yeah. Any other, any other thoughts before we close up? 

[01:00:49] Herb Geraghty: I don't think so. I think I'm exhausted. I think that I need a day or two, cause I really, we have been going nonstop since this decision has come out.

And so I'm excited to see. To take a break, to take a breath, to look at a lot of the, the work that we've put out to find all of the interviews that I did outside the court that I that I haven't seen yet and compile them and to then just sort of get back to the work that we, that we already have been doing.

I know you say you're working on your article for life matters journal and the Rehumanize blogs. So hopefully that'll be out soon and I'm excited to see that. I'm also just excited to, to recommit myself to the other issues. I think that in these past few weeks, this news has been so huge and so abortion has been front and center in my mind.

But during this time there's been one execution and there has been one scheduled execution that. Today as of recording was stayed. And so I think that, you know, this work of the consistent life ethic movement is is ongoing and we don't really have time to take a break or get distracted by just one of these issues because you know, the rest of the world is still moving.

And there are, there's work to be done on all of the many fronts that we that we see as consistent life ethic activists. And so my, my next step, and the next thing I'm doing is I'm editing an article about the death penalty. 'cause that's, that's the second thing on my mind after abortion. And then I'm sure there's going to be some horrible news about euthanasia or 

[01:02:24] Emiliano Vera: and invite in Yemen.

Sorry. Biden does reinvaded Somalia as well today, so, 

[01:02:29] Herb Geraghty: okay. I haven't been on Twitter and the flowers, so I didn't even know that. And so I'm sure we're going to have to respond to that ongoing violence in Ukraine and NATO expansion and all of these things that we are deeply concerned about. And so.

But it is nice to have 

[01:02:45] Emiliano Vera: a win on like the thing that's just like the biggest numerically. 

[01:02:48] Herb Geraghty: That's true. It's very nice. It's nice to have a wind period where see, you know, like you said, oh, Biden invaded another country that I didn't even hear about because I, 

[01:02:58] Emiliano Vera: for all of the listeners who are not fans of Trump, I, I, including me just yeah.

Point out that Biden reinvented a country that Trump pulled out from. So there is our little dose of late, late capitalist contradiction today. 

[01:03:15] Herb Geraghty: Thank you, Emiliano. So I think with that, I think it's clear that we have a bunch of work to do so we should sign off from the Rehumanize podcast and then go get to that work.

Let's go do the work. All right. We're taking. Take a nap and then do the work. All right. Thank you everyone for listening. Peace.